Bava Batra 348

מאי בינייהו

What [is the practical difference] between them?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Papa and R. Huna. Whatever the reason, the guarantor is not entitled to exact payment from the orphans! ');">¹</span> — [The difference] between them is [the case] where the debtor admitted [liability],<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' While dying he stated that he had not deposited any valuables with the creditor. ');">²</span> or<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'or also'. ');">³</span>

איכא בינייהו כשחייב מודה אי נמי דשמתוהו ומת בשמתיה

where he was placed under the ban<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' for refusing to obey an order of the court for the payment of the debt. ');">⁴</span> and died [while still] under the ban.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In both these cases it is obvious that the debtor had not entrusted the creditor with any valuables as a security for the loan. Hence, according to R. Huna, the orphans, whose duty it is to discharge their father's debts, must indemnify the guarantor. According to R. Papa. however, they are not obliged to pay even in such cases. ');">⁵</span> [A message] was sent from Palestine:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'from there'. ');">⁶</span>

שלחו מתם שמתוהו ומת בשמתיה הלכתא כרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע

[Where one] was placed under a ban<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In both these cases it is obvious that the debtor had not entrusted the creditor with any valuables as a security for the loan. Hence, according to R. Huna, the orphans, whose duty it is to discharge their father's debts, must indemnify the guarantor. According to R. Papa. however, they are not obliged to pay even in such cases. ');">⁵</span> and died under the ban, the law is in accordance with [the view of] R. Huna the son of R. Joshua.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That the guarantor who discharged the debt of such a debtor is entitled to exact payment from the orphans; since, in such a case, it is certain that no valuables were deposited by the debtor with the creditor. ');">⁷</span> An objection was raised: A guarantor who produced<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'from under whose hand goes out'. ');">⁸</span>

מיתיבי ערב שהיה שטר חוב יוצא מתחת ידו אינו גובה ואם כתוב בו התקבלתי ממך גובה

a bond of indebtedness<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which ho received from the creditor on payment of the debt incurred by the father of the orphans. ');">⁹</span> cannot exact payment.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' from the orphans, while they are still minors; since it is possible that he never repaid the loan, but accidentally found the bond which the creditor may have lost. When, however, the orphans obtain their majority they may be sued by the guarantor who, on taking the required oath, must be duly compensated. ');">¹⁰</span> If, however, it contains the entry,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'written in it'. ');">¹¹</span>

בשלמא לרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע משכחת לה כשחייב מודה אלא לרב פפא קשיא

'I<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The creditor. ');">¹²</span> received<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The amount of the debt. ');">¹³</span> from you' he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The guarantor. ');">¹⁴</span>

שאני התם להכי טרח וכתב ליה התקבלתי

may exact payment.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In this case it is certain that the bond was not found by him but that it was delivered to him by the creditor. ');">¹⁵</span> [Now], according to R. Huna the son of R. Joshua one can well understand [this law]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That the guarantor may exact payment from the orphans where the receipt for the debt is entered on the bond. ');">¹⁶</span> to be applicable in the case where the debtor had admitted [liability].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra p. 767. n. 7. ');">¹⁷</span>

ההוא ערבא דעובד כוכבים דפרעיה לעובד כוכבים מקמי דלתבעינהו ליתמי א"ל רב מרדכי לרב אשי הכי אמר אבימי מהגרוניא משמיה דרבא אפילו למ"ד חיישינן לצררי ה"מ ישראל אבל עובד כוכבים כיון דבתר ערבא אזיל לא חיישינן לצררי

According to R. Papa.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who holds that orphans are not obliged to discharge the debts of their father. ');">¹⁸</span> however, there is a difficulty!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Why should the orphans be made to indemnify the guarantor? ');">¹⁹</span> — There it is different; since<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Cf. BaH, a.l. ');">²⁰</span>

א"ל אדרבה אפילו למ"ד לא חיישינן לצררי הני מילי ישראל אבל עובדי כוכבים כיון דדינייהו בתר ערבא אזלי אי לאו דאתפסיה צררי מעיקרא לא הוה מקבל ליה:

he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The creditor. ');">²¹</span> took the trouble to write<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'and wrote'. ');">²²</span> for him, 'I received,'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., he has given him a receipt for the amount received. ');">²³</span>

וכן היה רשב"ג אומר הערב לאשה בכתובתה [וכו']: משה בר עצרי ערבא דכתובתה דכלתיה הוה רב הונא בריה צורבא מדרבנן הוה ודחיקא ליה מילתא אמר אביי ליכא דניזיל דנסביה עצה לרב הונא דנגרשה לדביתהו ותיזיל ותגבי כתובה מאבוה והדר נהדרה

for this [very object].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In order that the guarantor may become the legal possessor of the bond. The amount now due to him can no longer be regarded as a verbal loan but as one secured by a written bond. R. Papa exempts orphans from the payment of a verbal loan only, but not from that which is secured by a bond. The payment of such a bond on the part of the orphans is obligatory. ');">²⁴</span> A certain guarantor to a gentile once paid the gentile before he sued the orphans.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Whose father was the debtor. ');">²⁵</span> Said R. Mordecai to R. Ashi:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' When the claim of the guarantor for compensation from the orphans was submitted to him for decision. ');">²⁶</span>

א"ל רבא והא ידירנה הנאה תנן א"ל אביי אטו כל דמגרש בבי דינא מגרש

Thus said Abimi of Hagronia<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' [A suburb of Nehardea, v. Obermeyer, op. cit. 265 ff.] ');">²⁷</span> in the name of Raba: Even according to him who said [that the possibility that] bundles [of valuables were deposited with the creditor was] to be taken into consideration,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra 174a (end), and notes. ');">²⁸</span> this is only applicable to<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'these words', ');">²⁹</span>

לסוף איגלאי מילתא דכהן הוא אמר אביי היינו דאמרי אינשי בתר עניא אזלא עניותא

an Israelite,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who knows the law that before calling upon the guarantor to pay, the creditor must first approach the debtor. Hence it is possible that valuables might have been deposited with him by the debtor. ');">³⁰</span> but [in the case of] a Gentile, since he [invariably] goes [for payment] to the guarantor<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra 173b. ');">³¹</span> [the possibility that] bundles [of valuables were deposited with the creditor] need not be taken into consideration.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' As the debtor well knows that the gentile would, in any case, exact payment from the guarantor, who would not entrust him with any valuables which would only enable the gentile to collect the debt twice. ');">³²</span>

ומי אמר אביי הכי והא אמר אביי איזהו רשע ערום זה המשיא עצה למכור בנכסי' כרשב"ג

[The other]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Ashi. ');">³³</span> said unto him: On the contrary; even according to him who said that [the possibility that] bundles [of valuables were deposited with the creditor] need not be taken into consideration, this is only applicable to<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. p. 768, n. 15. ');">³⁴</span> an Israelite, but [in the case of] gentiles, since their judges [invariably] go to the guarantor, [it may be taken for granted] that had not [the debtor] deposited with him<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The guarantor. ');">³⁵</span>

בנו שאני וצורבא מרבנן שאני

[some] bundles [of valuables] at the outset, he would not have accepted [any responsibility whatsoever].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Knowing full well that the creditor would exact payment from him. Hence, he cannot recoup himself from the orphans while they are still minors. Cf. p. 767. n. 15 end. ');">³⁶</span> AND SO SAID R. SIMEON B. GAMALIEL: WHERE [A MAN] IS GUARANTOR FOR A WOMAN IN [RESPECT OF] HER <i>KETHUBAH</i> ETC. Moses b. Azri was guarantor for the <i>kethubah</i> of his daughter-in-law. Now his son, R. Huna, was a scholar but in poor circumstances.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'and the thing was pressing him'. ');">³⁷</span> Said Abaye: Is there no one who would go and advise R. Huna to divorce his wife, so that she might go and collect her <i>kethubah</i> from his father, and then re-marry her?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And thus come into the possession of some money. ');">³⁸</span>

והא ערב הוא [וקיימא לן] ערב דכתובה לא משתעבד קבלן הוה

'But,' said Raba to him, 'have we [not] learned that [the husband] MUST VOW TO DERIVE NO [FURTHER] BENEFIT FROM HER?' 'Does everyone who divorces [his wife]', said Abaye to him, 'do it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'divorce'. ');">³⁹</span> at a court of law?'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The divorce could be arranged in the presence of witnesses out of court where no one would compel the husband to vow that he would derive no further benefit from his wife. ');">⁴⁰</span> Finally, [however], it was discovered that he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Huna. ');">⁴¹</span>

הניחא למ"ד קבלן דכתובה אע"ג דלית ליה נכסי לבעל משתעבד שפיר אלא למאן דאמר אי אית ליה משתעבד אי לית ליה לא משתעבד מאי איכא למימר

was a priest.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who is forbidden to marry a divorced woman. ');">⁴²</span> 'This is just what people say', exclaimed Abaye, 'poverty follows the poor'.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' B.K. 92a, Hul. 105b. ');">⁴³</span> Could Abaye have said such a thing?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That R. Huna should be so advised. ');">⁴⁴</span>

איבעית אימא מיהוי הוה ליה ואישתדוף ואיבעית אימא אבא לגבי בריה שעבודי משעבד נפשיה

Surely Abaye had said, 'Who is a cunning rogue? He who counsels to sell an estate, in accordance with R. Simeon b. Gamaliel'!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra 137a. How then could he have contemplated giving such advice to R. Huna. ');">⁴⁵</span> — [The case of] one's son is different, and [the case of] a scholar is [also] different. But, surely, he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Huna's father. ');">⁴⁶</span> [was only] a guarantor, and a guarantor for a <i>kethubah</i>, it has been definitely established,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Rashal. Lit., 'established for us', v. infra. ');">⁴⁷</span>

דאיתמר ערב דכתובה דברי הכל לא משתעבד קבלן דבעל חוב דברי הכל משתעבד קבלן דכתובה וערב דבעל חוב פליגי מר סבר אי אית ליה נכסי ללוה משתעבד אי לית ליה לא משתעבד ומר סבר בין אית ליה ובין לית ליה משתעבד

is not responsible for payment? — He was a kabbelan.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. Glos. ');">⁴⁸</span> This [reply] would be quite correct according to him who said that, though the husband had no property, a kabbelan for a <i>kethubah</i> is responsible for payment; what, however, can be replied according to him who said [that] he is responsible for payment [only] where the [husband]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'to him'. ');">⁴⁹</span> has [property], but is not responsible for payment where the husband has not?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since R. Huna was poor, he could not have been the possessor of any property. His father, consequently, though a kabbelan, could not have become liable for the payment of the kethubah. ');">⁵⁰</span>

והלכתא ערב בין אית ליה ובין לית ליה משתעבד בר מערב דכתובה דאע"ג דאית ליה לבעל לא משתעבד מאי טעמא מצוה הוא דעבד ולאו מידי חסרה

— If you wish, I might say: [R. Huna] did have property<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' At the time his father undertook to be kabbelan. ');">⁵¹</span> but it was struck with blast. And if you prefer, I might Say: A father in the case of his son always undertakes responsibility,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Even where the son is destitute. ');">⁵²</span> for it was stated: A guarantor for a <i>kethubah</i> is, in the opinion<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'words'. ');">⁵³</span>

אמר רב הונא שכיב מרע שהקדיש כל נכסיו ואמר מנה לפלוני בידי נאמן חזקה אין אדם עושה קנוניא על הקדש

of all, not responsible for payment;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The reason is given infra. ');">⁵⁴</span> a kabbelan for a creditor is, in the opinion of all, responsible for payment; [in the case, however, of] a kabbelan for a <i>kethubah</i> or a guarantor for a creditor, there is a dispute. [One] Master holds that he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The guarantor. ');">⁵⁵</span> is responsible only where the debtor has property, but if he has none, he is not responsible;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since no one would guarantee a loan where it is known that the debtor has no means wherewith to meet his obligations. A guarantee in such a case must not, therefore, be taken seriously. ');">⁵⁶</span>

מתקיף לה רב נחמן וכי אדם עושה קנוניא על בניו דרב ושמואל דאמרי תרוייהו שכיב מרע שאמר מנה לפלוני בידי אמר תנו נותנין לא אמר תנו אין נותנין אלמא אדם עשוי שלא להשביע את בניו

and the [other] Master holds that he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The guarantor. ');">⁵⁵</span> is responsible whether [the debtor] has, or has not any property. And the law [is that a guarantor] is responsible for payment in all<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. BaH and Rashal, a.l. ');">⁵⁷</span> [cases],<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Whether the debtor, has or has no property. ');">⁵⁸</span> with the exception of a guarantor for a <i>kethubah</i> who is not responsible for payment even though the husband possessed property. What is the reason? — He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The guarantor. ');">⁵⁹</span> was [merely] performing a religious act<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' By his guarantee he was helping to bring about the marriage of the parties. A guarantee in a matrimonial affair is not to be taken seriously as pledging actual payment, but as a mere expression of confidence in the honesty and integrity of the party concerned. ');">⁶⁰</span> and [the woman]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who, it is assumed, always prefers married life to spinsterhood. ');">⁶¹</span> had lost nothing.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' It is certain that even if she had known that her kethubah would not be paid, she would still have consented to the marriage. In the case of a loan, however, it is clear that had it not been for the guarantee, given by the guarantor, the creditor would not have risked his money. In the latter case, therefore, the guarantor is liable. ');">⁶²</span> R. Huna said: If a dying man consecrated all his property and then stated 'I owe<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'in my hand'. ');">⁶³</span> a <i>maneh</i> to X', he is believed, because it is known that no one would form a conspiracy against sacred property.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Hence, his statement is accepted, and the maneh he mentioned is to be paid to the creditor named. ');">⁶⁴</span> R. Nahman demurred: Would a person form a conspiracy against his children<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' To deprive them of their due in favour of a stranger. ');">⁶⁵</span> and yet both Rab and Samuel stated that if a dying man said, 'I owe a <i>maneh</i> to X', if he [specifically] added, 'Give [it to him]', it is to be given, but if he did not [specifically] say, 'Give', it is not to be given,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Though ho clearly admitted liability. ');">⁶⁶</span> from this it clearly follows [that] a person is wont to disclaim wealth for<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., not to satisfy'. i.e., a person is in the habit of concealing the wealth of his children in order to ward off envy. ');">⁶⁷</span> his children;